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	Comments on: I Don&#8217;t Care About Clients	</title>
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	<description>By and about sex workers</description>
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		<title>
		By: VanessaNoLastName		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-946191</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VanessaNoLastName]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2015 00:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-946191</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For a long time I&#039;ve been feeling that involving the clients in activism is a bad bad bad idea. I feel suspicious that those activists who want to involve them are trying to establish a social feminist argument for SW rights (we&#039;re working in a caring profession, we&#039;re basically naked therapists, like I cringe at activists who constantly bring up working with the disabled) and I fear this always denigrates our human rights claims, so thank you. 

Beyond the obvious material conflict between service provider and client, there is another aspect of the relationship I find antagonistic to activism, which is that most of my clients think I don&#039;t deserve stigma because &quot; you&#039;re too smart and nice to do this, like I bet you&#039;re in nursing school.&quot; Because I&#039;m giving them a service, they think that&#039;s what I&#039;m good for, and their hope for me is I&#039;ll find some more acceptable service to perform in society, and my stigma is only bad so far as it prevents me from finding something better to be. I guess as a young woman I don&#039;t want clients to speak for me is cause they mostly want to be my daddy. 

I want to hear from clients, I love Chester Brown&#039;s &quot;Paying for It&quot;, but I partly I love it because it admits the isolation of the john&#039;s experience from the SW&#039;s.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a long time I&#8217;ve been feeling that involving the clients in activism is a bad bad bad idea. I feel suspicious that those activists who want to involve them are trying to establish a social feminist argument for SW rights (we&#8217;re working in a caring profession, we&#8217;re basically naked therapists, like I cringe at activists who constantly bring up working with the disabled) and I fear this always denigrates our human rights claims, so thank you. </p>
<p>Beyond the obvious material conflict between service provider and client, there is another aspect of the relationship I find antagonistic to activism, which is that most of my clients think I don&#8217;t deserve stigma because &#8221; you&#8217;re too smart and nice to do this, like I bet you&#8217;re in nursing school.&#8221; Because I&#8217;m giving them a service, they think that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m good for, and their hope for me is I&#8217;ll find some more acceptable service to perform in society, and my stigma is only bad so far as it prevents me from finding something better to be. I guess as a young woman I don&#8217;t want clients to speak for me is cause they mostly want to be my daddy. </p>
<p>I want to hear from clients, I love Chester Brown&#8217;s &#8220;Paying for It&#8221;, but I partly I love it because it admits the isolation of the john&#8217;s experience from the SW&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>
		By: stargirl		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-585178</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stargirl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-585178</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is a disaster of an article. Read this:

&quot;We, as sex workers, deserve rights simply because we are people and people should be able to work and support themselves and their families without being criminalized and harmed. Even when clients are criminalized, we are the ones who live with the lifelong stigma of being branded prostitutes and dragged through the court system. Misogyny and whorephobia intersect here when we note that a man’s conviction for paying for the services of a sex worker virtually never interferes with his life afterwards, yet women can lose their careers if their sex working past is made known.&quot;

First you say sex workers deserve rights as an application of the general principle that all human should have rights and be respected. Then you immediately go on a diatribe about how clients experiences don&#039;t matter. What happened to rights for everyone? Also given the job market being convicted of paying for sex can and does permanently affect one&#039;s lives. 

These sorts of articles put me in a weird place. Of course sex workers are the most likely victims of laws against sex work. But some clients do suffer terrible. And to claim you don&#039;t care and those people don&#039;t matter is just terrible. 

Maybe you have your reasons for this lack of human compassion. But people shouldn&#039;t be praising you for it. This lack of empathy and compassion among the general public is the reason sex work is still illegal. Stopping compassion is not the answer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a disaster of an article. Read this:</p>
<p>&#8220;We, as sex workers, deserve rights simply because we are people and people should be able to work and support themselves and their families without being criminalized and harmed. Even when clients are criminalized, we are the ones who live with the lifelong stigma of being branded prostitutes and dragged through the court system. Misogyny and whorephobia intersect here when we note that a man’s conviction for paying for the services of a sex worker virtually never interferes with his life afterwards, yet women can lose their careers if their sex working past is made known.&#8221;</p>
<p>First you say sex workers deserve rights as an application of the general principle that all human should have rights and be respected. Then you immediately go on a diatribe about how clients experiences don&#8217;t matter. What happened to rights for everyone? Also given the job market being convicted of paying for sex can and does permanently affect one&#8217;s lives. </p>
<p>These sorts of articles put me in a weird place. Of course sex workers are the most likely victims of laws against sex work. But some clients do suffer terrible. And to claim you don&#8217;t care and those people don&#8217;t matter is just terrible. </p>
<p>Maybe you have your reasons for this lack of human compassion. But people shouldn&#8217;t be praising you for it. This lack of empathy and compassion among the general public is the reason sex work is still illegal. Stopping compassion is not the answer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Labor of Love		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-79351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Labor of Love]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2014 14:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-79351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] of the individuals in sex work management give us mild, conditional support, sort of the same way clients do. You know the story—they have many more demands than they do contributions. I have never seen any [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] of the individuals in sex work management give us mild, conditional support, sort of the same way clients do. You know the story—they have many more demands than they do contributions. I have never seen any [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Astrin		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21890</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Astrin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2014 14:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21890</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It amazes me when clients don&#039;t respect their hires. First of all, you hired her - that&#039;s a professional relationship. Secondly, she&#039;s a fellow human being. Thirdly, she&#039;s working a profession which is inherently dangerous, facing a level of risk every day to provide a clearly valued service (otherwise you wouldn&#039;t be willing to pay for it). 

But your piece is about clients&#039; &#039;rights&#039; or &#039;feelings&#039;. I agree - making a big deal of the feelings of a sex professional&#039;s client&#039;s feelings is like emphasizing the feelings of a plumber&#039;s client or, even the client of a non-sexual massage place. This isn&#039;t social work - we pay different people to care about or validate or [insert buzzword here] our feelings.

I&#039;m preaching to the choir. But I&#039;ve found my many conversations with women working at strip clubs to be interesting, provacative and mutually respectful, as it should be. But, then again, I live in the friendly upper midwest, and escorting differs from dancing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It amazes me when clients don&#8217;t respect their hires. First of all, you hired her &#8211; that&#8217;s a professional relationship. Secondly, she&#8217;s a fellow human being. Thirdly, she&#8217;s working a profession which is inherently dangerous, facing a level of risk every day to provide a clearly valued service (otherwise you wouldn&#8217;t be willing to pay for it). </p>
<p>But your piece is about clients&#8217; &#8216;rights&#8217; or &#8216;feelings&#8217;. I agree &#8211; making a big deal of the feelings of a sex professional&#8217;s client&#8217;s feelings is like emphasizing the feelings of a plumber&#8217;s client or, even the client of a non-sexual massage place. This isn&#8217;t social work &#8211; we pay different people to care about or validate or [insert buzzword here] our feelings.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m preaching to the choir. But I&#8217;ve found my many conversations with women working at strip clubs to be interesting, provacative and mutually respectful, as it should be. But, then again, I live in the friendly upper midwest, and escorting differs from dancing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kitty Stryker		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21670</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kitty Stryker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21670</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for this post. I think more people need to read that BGD post about no more allies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this post. I think more people need to read that BGD post about no more allies.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21649</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2014 10:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21649</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m curious as to what the author and readers think of what I&#039;m trying to do as a photographer, which involved being a client, as I continue to try to be an effective ally.

http://worldphoto.org/news-and-events/wpo-news/collection-photographer-interview-peter-brian-schafer/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious as to what the author and readers think of what I&#8217;m trying to do as a photographer, which involved being a client, as I continue to try to be an effective ally.</p>
<p><a href="http://worldphoto.org/news-and-events/wpo-news/collection-photographer-interview-peter-brian-schafer/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://worldphoto.org/news-and-events/wpo-news/collection-photographer-interview-peter-brian-schafer/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Ms. Pris		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21535</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ms. Pris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21535</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-20972&quot;&gt;Amanda&lt;/a&gt;.

I know of at least one sex worker org run by a hobby ho. This person was an upper-class student who turned a few tricks for fun and parlayed that into a career as a high profile sex worker activist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-20972">Amanda</a>.</p>
<p>I know of at least one sex worker org run by a hobby ho. This person was an upper-class student who turned a few tricks for fun and parlayed that into a career as a high profile sex worker activist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ms. Pris		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21534</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ms. Pris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21534</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21044&quot;&gt;Domina Elle&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;There was a time when people took great pride in themselves and what they did, and why.&quot; This is, and always has been, a fantasy of privilege. There have always been people who did the work they did, whatever kind of work it was, *only* in order to make money.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21044">Domina Elle</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;There was a time when people took great pride in themselves and what they did, and why.&#8221; This is, and always has been, a fantasy of privilege. There have always been people who did the work they did, whatever kind of work it was, *only* in order to make money.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zander Falcon		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21528</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zander Falcon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21528</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Olive,

I doubt there is anything I can ever say that you would want to hear from myself. While I have always considered myself a Human Rights Activist first and a sex work client 11th or 12th, I will only ever be seen as a client here. I hope you read this because I agree with you for the vast majority of what you say. Sex worker rights are about sex workers and should be heard from them. Clients who want to help should ask how and follow the lead of sex workers. Never speak for them, never speak over them, and in many cases just never speak at all. Giving money to a SWOP so they can organize what needs doing, combating stigma, or just not perpetuating the client review board mentality.
When I wrote that piece on How I Became A Client, I wrote it for my own blog on mental health and personal life. At the time it had nothing to do with any sex work activism. It being posted elsewhere does not show it&#039;s original context (the other posts). I hope it shows that people can make mistakes early on in learning to be an activist though and change. I do feel I changed and learned as I went on.
As an activist, not as a client, I tried to bring local awareness to situations and raise the voices of others. If I had to speak myself, I tried to keep to Human Rights. If we are going to keep using that blog post as a reference as to why I should not speak up please consider adding the more public ones I add here:

http://metronews.ca/news/saskatoon/830572/petition-opposes-city-of-saskatoons-potential-isolation-of-strip-clubs/
(when it went to a vote before City Council I had gotten 10 people from the strip club industry to each speak publicly in front of City Council...there own voices)

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/life/Advocates+politicians+grapple+with+prostitution/9366644/story.html
(because of my previous public activism the reporter sought me out when no local sex worker at that time was willing to go on record...again I avoided speaking for sex worker)

http://www.newstalk650.com/sites/default/files/JGLPROSITUTIONDEBATEJAN14.mp3
(this is a debate that was on live radio between myself and a Pastor regarding the Nordic model with people calling in afterward...one caller is a local sex worker)

http://issuu.com/verb/docs/verb_issue_s275_jan_31-feb_6_14/1
(go to page 4 to see an interview with a local sex worker...I mention this piece because all the above ones had a role in leading to this one to be possible here in Saskatoon...doors opened, connections made, people introduced,  and finally sex workers voices being heard locally and publicly)

That is what I have wanted to do all along. Never my own voice speaking for you. I made mistakes along the way. Crossing the line from activist to client was one of those mistakes. I think had I stayed only an activist this conversation would be different. In your article you mention that &quot;the ability to withdraw support when criticized is a highly manipulative, and I would even say it is an abusive misuse of power on the part of so-called allies.&quot; I agree with that overall when the criticisms being directed are valid, as they most often are. The criticisms at me are correct for the most part. I disagree with the ones where I am misquoted. I made mistakes in the past. I fixed them. I have not been allowed to move past those mistakes by many people however.
For this part I ask you to stop seeing me as a client or an activist. Please see me as a human struggling with life right now, for that is how I began this journey into blogging, Twitter, and activism. As just a person already dealing with depression, I recently began receiving hate tweets, hate email, and false accusations. Even in these comments someone took a private message and claimed I was stalking them. To send a Direct Message on Twitter the other person must follow you. (can I stalk someone following me?) My support for sex worker Rights will never waver, but my ability to withstand hurtful words does waver. I will continue to do things in real life locally. I have left Twitter, deleted my blogs.
Lastly, Olive, if you are still reading this, I want you to know that you played a big role in my learning to let sex workers speak for themselves, to not speak over them. That the intersection of drugs, mental illness, and sex work needs to be listened too more. Thank you.

Be well.

Zander Falcon
(not a client, not an ally, just a person who gives a shit)
zanderfalcon@sasktel.net]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Olive,</p>
<p>I doubt there is anything I can ever say that you would want to hear from myself. While I have always considered myself a Human Rights Activist first and a sex work client 11th or 12th, I will only ever be seen as a client here. I hope you read this because I agree with you for the vast majority of what you say. Sex worker rights are about sex workers and should be heard from them. Clients who want to help should ask how and follow the lead of sex workers. Never speak for them, never speak over them, and in many cases just never speak at all. Giving money to a SWOP so they can organize what needs doing, combating stigma, or just not perpetuating the client review board mentality.<br />
When I wrote that piece on How I Became A Client, I wrote it for my own blog on mental health and personal life. At the time it had nothing to do with any sex work activism. It being posted elsewhere does not show it&#8217;s original context (the other posts). I hope it shows that people can make mistakes early on in learning to be an activist though and change. I do feel I changed and learned as I went on.<br />
As an activist, not as a client, I tried to bring local awareness to situations and raise the voices of others. If I had to speak myself, I tried to keep to Human Rights. If we are going to keep using that blog post as a reference as to why I should not speak up please consider adding the more public ones I add here:</p>
<p><a href="http://metronews.ca/news/saskatoon/830572/petition-opposes-city-of-saskatoons-potential-isolation-of-strip-clubs/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://metronews.ca/news/saskatoon/830572/petition-opposes-city-of-saskatoons-potential-isolation-of-strip-clubs/</a><br />
(when it went to a vote before City Council I had gotten 10 people from the strip club industry to each speak publicly in front of City Council&#8230;there own voices)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thestarphoenix.com/life/Advocates+politicians+grapple+with+prostitution/9366644/story.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.thestarphoenix.com/life/Advocates+politicians+grapple+with+prostitution/9366644/story.html</a><br />
(because of my previous public activism the reporter sought me out when no local sex worker at that time was willing to go on record&#8230;again I avoided speaking for sex worker)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newstalk650.com/sites/default/files/JGLPROSITUTIONDEBATEJAN14.mp3" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.newstalk650.com/sites/default/files/JGLPROSITUTIONDEBATEJAN14.mp3</a><br />
(this is a debate that was on live radio between myself and a Pastor regarding the Nordic model with people calling in afterward&#8230;one caller is a local sex worker)</p>
<p><a href="http://issuu.com/verb/docs/verb_issue_s275_jan_31-feb_6_14/1" rel="nofollow ugc">http://issuu.com/verb/docs/verb_issue_s275_jan_31-feb_6_14/1</a><br />
(go to page 4 to see an interview with a local sex worker&#8230;I mention this piece because all the above ones had a role in leading to this one to be possible here in Saskatoon&#8230;doors opened, connections made, people introduced,  and finally sex workers voices being heard locally and publicly)</p>
<p>That is what I have wanted to do all along. Never my own voice speaking for you. I made mistakes along the way. Crossing the line from activist to client was one of those mistakes. I think had I stayed only an activist this conversation would be different. In your article you mention that &#8220;the ability to withdraw support when criticized is a highly manipulative, and I would even say it is an abusive misuse of power on the part of so-called allies.&#8221; I agree with that overall when the criticisms being directed are valid, as they most often are. The criticisms at me are correct for the most part. I disagree with the ones where I am misquoted. I made mistakes in the past. I fixed them. I have not been allowed to move past those mistakes by many people however.<br />
For this part I ask you to stop seeing me as a client or an activist. Please see me as a human struggling with life right now, for that is how I began this journey into blogging, Twitter, and activism. As just a person already dealing with depression, I recently began receiving hate tweets, hate email, and false accusations. Even in these comments someone took a private message and claimed I was stalking them. To send a Direct Message on Twitter the other person must follow you. (can I stalk someone following me?) My support for sex worker Rights will never waver, but my ability to withstand hurtful words does waver. I will continue to do things in real life locally. I have left Twitter, deleted my blogs.<br />
Lastly, Olive, if you are still reading this, I want you to know that you played a big role in my learning to let sex workers speak for themselves, to not speak over them. That the intersection of drugs, mental illness, and sex work needs to be listened too more. Thank you.</p>
<p>Be well.</p>
<p>Zander Falcon<br />
(not a client, not an ally, just a person who gives a shit)<br />
<a href="mailto:zanderfalcon@sasktel.net">zanderfalcon@sasktel.net</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: sarah m		</title>
		<link>https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21253</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sarah m]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Feb 2014 12:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://titsandsass.com/?p=15890#comment-21253</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21201&quot;&gt;sarah m&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;Zander Falcon&quot; decided to track me down on Twitter and DM me a guilt-trip over comment above: 

&quot;&#039;There is no such thing as an “ally” client.&#039; your words on tits&#038;sass comments. Sorry you think so ill of me &#038; my trying to raise SW voices.&quot;

You don&#039;t like that your interests are necessarily opposed to those of them women you pay to fuck? Talk to capitalism. 

As far as &quot;trying to raise SW voices&quot; goes, well, thanks, but I can raise my own. Watch!

DON&#039;T FUCKING STALK ME TO WHINE ABOUT HOW I SAID SOMETHING YOU DON&#039;T LIKE ON A BLOG, YOU ENTITLED, CONTROLLING, PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE PIECE OF SHIT. 

There is no such thing as an &quot;ally&quot; client.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://titsandsass.com/i-dont-care-about-clients/#comment-21201">sarah m</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;Zander Falcon&#8221; decided to track me down on Twitter and DM me a guilt-trip over comment above: </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;There is no such thing as an “ally” client.&#8217; your words on tits&amp;sass comments. Sorry you think so ill of me &amp; my trying to raise SW voices.&#8221;</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t like that your interests are necessarily opposed to those of them women you pay to fuck? Talk to capitalism. </p>
<p>As far as &#8220;trying to raise SW voices&#8221; goes, well, thanks, but I can raise my own. Watch!</p>
<p>DON&#8217;T FUCKING STALK ME TO WHINE ABOUT HOW I SAID SOMETHING YOU DON&#8217;T LIKE ON A BLOG, YOU ENTITLED, CONTROLLING, PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE PIECE OF SHIT. </p>
<p>There is no such thing as an &#8220;ally&#8221; client.</p>
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